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Front Brake Cylinders and Related Parts for a 1950 Tourer

Moss Motors
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dschwartz1957 David Schwartz
Framingham, MA, USA   USA
1950 Morris Minor "Moyshe"
1968 Morris Mini Traveller "The Tardis"
2000 Mazda MX-5
Hi All,

I recently bought a 1950 Morris Minor Tourer. The body and interior are immaculate and the engine was replaced with a 948, likely from a later Minor (number plate riveted to block is 9M-U-H-98803). Not surprisingly, the mechanicals need some sorting. The brakes are basically non-functional, with the master cylinder and wheel cylinders locking up. The carb needs to be rebuilt, front dampers need to be rebuilt and probably other things I have yet to discover.

Finding most of the early MM brake parts is difficult, if not impossible. The front drums/hubs are the early style with the bearings pressed in and use lug bolts instead of lug nuts. One drum is missing two large chunks around the rim, most likely from a botched removal job. Two of the banjo bolts are stripped and one banjo fitting was damaged when I remove a stripped bolt. The front wheel cylinders are not available, but can be sleeved and rebuilt. I located a used front hub/drum in good condition and Lockheed or TRW master cylinders are available. Of course the banjo fitting (#180-681 or 180-691) is not available, though I should be able to find a used one through the Minor or MGT used parts network.

Charles Ware in the UK suggested "upgrading" to later 7" front drums by replacing much of the front suspension and stub axles. I would still need to find a set of used later back-plates. This doesn't seem worth the effort or expense.

Another parts supplier thought I might be able to replace the early front back-plates with later back-plates that accept the later (available) front wheel cylinders. This would theoretically allow me to use the early drums/hub and keep the suspension original. Does anyone know if the back-plates can be switched and if this modification will actually work?

I am open to other suggestions, including sources of early MM parts. Feel free to get in touch if you have any early brake parts for sale.

Thank you,

David Schwartz
Framingham, MA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-29 12:50 PM by dschwartz1957.

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0123 Mike D
Biddulp, Staffs, UK   GBR
Ask Gerard or Steve about a
disc brake conversion perhaps thumbs up

http://www.olphartz.com/

http://www.gerardsgarage.com/

plumby Phil P
Surrey Hills, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia   AUS
Yes, all the early Minor "Series MM" brake and hub parts are now getting hard to find, brake cyls nearly impossible

Seeing your car is already converted to a later M1000 engine, it may not mind (!) being also converted to later, very common (and cheap brake drums, wheel cyls and wheels.

(NB. Series MM wheel-rims with the knob-type pegs for the hub-cap to locate onto are also weak around the lug bolts, and tended to crack).

I have loads of the parts you'd need here, but am rather far away unless you know someone who travels here with airlines! Bear in mind that any specific Series MM parts you need are generally to be found in Aust and NZ, since so many of the cars were exported here in the early post-War period when it was "Export-or-Die" for the Brit manufacturers.



Phil Plumbe
Surrey Hills, Melbourne, Australia

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emjay Jim English
Marietta, PA, USA   USA
If the MM drums are not compatible with the BMC backing plates, it would make more sense to switch to the later 8 inch brakes because either one will required the stub axle and wheels to be changed. Has your upper link been changed to rubber bushings?

mm1953 Avatar
mm1953 Silver Member Scott S
Pittsburgh, PA, USA   USA
Yes I can sympathize with the lack of availability of brake parts for the early Minor MM and Series II. ESM used to have the front brake cylinders (pattern) for sale, but it looks like they are NLA. I have SS re-sleeved front and back brake cylinders and they are better than new and should last for a long time. Check out ESM Minors for example for the banjo bolts, not sure if this is the one you are looking for http://www.morrisminorspares.com/brakes-c42/front-brakes-c44/banjo-bolt-front-brake-cylinder-3-8-bsf-mm-series-ii-p829432. Moss Motors is not the best place for MM spares.

At the end of the day, as suggested by others, it might be best to upgrade to the later front brake arrangement, although there is nothing really wrong with the original setup when it was combined with the Morris sidevalve or 803 Austin engine.

0123 Mike D
Biddulp, Staffs, UK   GBR
usmh3 Avatar
usmh3 Rob Thomas
Cardiff, Wales, UK   GBR
The conversion uses a Morris 1000 7 inch backplate, springs and cylinders whilst keeping the MM cast drum and MM suspension legs. No need to change the drum (unless broken like yours). Frogeye (Bugeye?) Sprite parts will do the same job, I assume.

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0123 Mike D
Biddulp, Staffs, UK   GBR
From what I read on this forum
knowlegeable fellow Americans
with Minors consider discs essential.

"My first day driving back in 1962 was in a Traveler, a 1962 Pontiac Catalina passed me, cut in front of me and stopped suddenly, I could not stop, I rear ended him. Disks would have been a great thing to have that day."

http://www.morrisminorforum.com/phorum/read.php?2,24448,24649#msg-24649

http://www.morrisminorforum.com/phorum/search.php?0,search=disks,author=,page=1,match_type=ALL,match_dates=365,match_forum=ALL,match_threads=0



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 08:32 AM by 0123.

dschwartz1957 David Schwartz
Framingham, MA, USA   USA
1950 Morris Minor "Moyshe"
1968 Morris Mini Traveller "The Tardis"
2000 Mazda MX-5
There are too many options and I would prefer to keep it simple.

First choice is to keep the brakes original and find the replacements for the MM front wheel cylinders that can be used without a re-sleeve and rebuild.

Second choice (if it will work) is to swap to the Series 1000 back-plates so I can use the later drums and cylinders. Charles Ware's parts department did not indicate this was an option. Though I also asked about converted to the later brake drums, as opposed to keeping the MM drums/hubs.

Last choice is upgrading to discs (which Charles Ware said is not possible for an MM, or perhaps they don't have the parts).

I am willing to buy parts from Australia or New Zealand, though shipping to the US east coast will be expensive.

Anyone with early parts or other suggestions is welcome to contact me by email.

dschwartz1957@gmail.com

Thanks,

David



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 01:59 PM by dschwartz1957.

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usmh3 Avatar
usmh3 Rob Thomas
Cardiff, Wales, UK   GBR
Hello again, David.

The entire 'leg' from a 1000 can be bolted on and it will be an easy task, assuming nothing needs to be repaired. The downside is that the early car wheels are 4.5 inch PCD against 4 inch on the 1000 so you need to keep whichever wheel fits whichever hub assembly you use, and thus you need the specific 'leg' that fits the hub. I stuck with the early wheels, hub/drums and legs by just bolting on a 7-inch 1000/Bugeye brake backplate and associated shoes/cylinders/hoses so that I kept the same wheels and PCD. Hubcaps are different for the 2 wheel sizes, too.
To 'lose' that damaged hub/drum you'll need to either replace it with another or change everything for M 1000 parts.
I know Morris MO Oxford (circa 1951) cylinders are available and are a similar style, possibly only differing in the location of the bolts. Worth a thought.

Bryan Gostling in the UK MMOC will probably have a few drums.

The early hubs fit with imperial bearings whilst the later cars use metric so the spindles are different. A decent engineering shop could lathe up some new spindles which are a press fit (8 tons the last time I did it) into the leg.

emjay Jim English
Marietta, PA, USA   USA
Rob Thomas confirmed that the MM drums are compatible with the later seven inch brakes. If you change drums, you've open a can of worms. The hubs, stub axle, and wheels are different. Your wheels are 4 on 4-1/2 and the later ones are 4 on 4inch bolt circle. Finding another drum shouldn't be too difficult.

The only issue I can think of to installing disc would be your stub axle is different than the later cars and you would need different bearings. You might even be better off with the bigger bolt circle since it is more common.

Sleeving you present cylinders is probably the simplest option.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-30 10:29 AM by emjay.

0123 Mike D
Biddulp, Staffs, UK   GBR
dschwartz1957 David Schwartz
Framingham, MA, USA   USA
1950 Morris Minor "Moyshe"
1968 Morris Mini Traveller "The Tardis"
2000 Mazda MX-5
Hi Mike,

I exchanged emails with powertrackbrakes. They just sold their last set of MM wheel cylinders to be retro-fitted to an Austin 7.

I also emailed apnelson, but have yet to hear back.

Thank you,

David

0123 Mike D
Biddulp, Staffs, UK   GBR
I expect Nelson can supply seals.

Have you had you drum checked yet?

The sort of damage you've show on that
one drum seems likely to be terminal to me.

dschwartz1957 David Schwartz
Framingham, MA, USA   USA
1950 Morris Minor "Moyshe"
1968 Morris Mini Traveller "The Tardis"
2000 Mazda MX-5
I found a source for a good used hub/drum. The decision now is whether to rebuild the old wheel cylinders, or swap in a set of Minor 1000 back plates and get the easily available later wheel cylinders and related hardware.

David

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